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posted ago by drjillsusedscrunchie ago by drjillsusedscrunchie +24 / -3

Kind of gay, but in light of some personal development I've done because of this board, I'd like to offer my thoughts.

This year,  I've been overwhelmed with a lot of misfortunes. To summarize, since February the following has occurred: I've been sick, my wife had covid (not so bad, more like allergies and I got a month long vacation over it), and then had surgery to treat a very painful medical condition. My grandmother died, and Grandpa (from the ama) has been quarantined in his facility due to covid. He actually cried when he saw me the day we did the AMA, which I left out at the time. We've had to clean out over 60 years worth of life from their house and sell it, which was a lesson in materialism in and of itself. My car was totalled by a drunk driver and is a total loss. This would be ok, because we were miraculously unhurt and I hated that car, plus we got more money for it than it was worth, but we're down to one car, which is older and on its last leg. This past week has been the worst. Our house flooded and there's damage to be fixed. Multiple locations I manage at work kept having crisis after crisis. My parents, the only family I still talk to, completely let us down. Then, this past weekend. We went out as family and came home to find one of the two dogs we raised from a puppy had died from a freak accident. It's hard to type that because I pride myself on taking good care of my dogs and I feel overwhelming guilt. I even tried to give her cpr, even tho I knew it was too late. Throughout all the misfortunes, things had always worked out for the best, and I still don't feel like I'm being punished, but this was the one thing that really made me question if we were cursed. I've been having some literal ptsd, which has caught me off guard, because I've never had it, even after being both physically and sexually abused (the latter was a teenage girl when I was 6), being falsely arrested and accused of murder in an interrogation room as a teenager, and having experienced lots of traumatic deaths.

I'm not here to diary post (ok maybe I did a little) or write a country song, but after Gramps kept telling everyone not to get married, I wanted to share that throughout this whole year, my wife and kid (and remaining dog) have been the only reason I've been able to keep going. If all these things had happened to me and they weren't around, I wouldn't be typing this. My wife especially has been the shining example of a tradwife this year, even when she had surgery. She's done nothing but love me, gives me plenty of physical affection with no complaints, takes care of our family when I work long hours and even tends to the spinach bed. When I suggested we trying living by candlelight in the evenings, she enthusiastically participated and even lit candles before I'd get home when I'd work late. She stayed with our daughter by herself for a couple days so I could go see Grandpa, who loves her as well, even tho he doesn't even like women that much. That's not to say that we haven't had our moments of stress, but she's always done her best to support me and our family. She told me the other day that she wished we would never have to be sad again, but that there was no one other than me she'd rather be sad with. Gay, but I thought it was sweet, and it made me happy she felt that way. When I say that women are children, I mean that in the best ways as well, as they can be sweet, and full of love, and sometimes pretty smart too. Jk, sort of. (My wife is, but good luck with that one)

I want to be clear that marriage isn't for everyone, and children even less so.  Personal anecdotes about my tradwife do not negate the experiences of others who have been victimized by former wives/gfs or other females, and are struggling to move past, or those who wish to avoid this experience entirely. I've seen reasonable arguments made by MGTOW, that don't devolve into rebel yells of AWALT. I suppose if this post has to have a message its that, I've had everything material taken from me two or three times over in my life, and even when I've worked to get it all back, my family I made with my wife is still the best thing that's ever happened to me. Considering I met her 3 weeks after I broke up with my cheating whore ex who I dated for 5 years, and who took everything from me, including my savings, material possessions and my self worth, I cringe to think how my life would be different if I hadn't asked her out because I was scared I would get hurt again. The happiest times in my life, have always been when I accepted traditional responsibility. Much like how working outside is much harder than in an office, but is a lot more satisfying too.

I guess my message to the mgtow refugees is, I /others hear what you're saying, but not only do you have your own board to post these things to, the way you have chosen to life your life is not the only valid way, and attempting to recruit others to oppose the natural order of things will not go far on a board whose core message runs in direct opposition to MGTOW in practice (though it shouldnt in theory, which might be a discussion worth having in the comments).

If you got this far thanks for reading, and have blessed day.

Tl;dr- sure MGTOW is cool, but have you ever tried having a functional family? I had to make one myself, took some time but its great.

Comments (49)
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TruthDefenseForce 9 points ago +11 / -2

If you didn't have your wife, you'd have got through it all just fine. Wives offer comfort though because that's their job. As soon as your wife isn't comforting, it's time to get out.

The problem with modern society and the role MGTOW serves is that we teach boys to glorify romance. Men perceive romance through a man's superior ability (compared to a woman) and then they mistakenly think women perceive romance in the same way. To a man, romance sounds amazing and it is what all men seek but women do not perceive romance the same way men do. The only reason you think women used to be romantic is because of countless propaganda attempts by men to make women romantic but naturally women are not. Women emulated romance because men wanted that and women were forced into giving men what men wanted because women needed men for money/power. Now that women don't need men anymore due to the way our society is structured, the true nature of women is coming out, which isn't romantic. By teaching boys/men to glorify romance though, in modernity, it leaves boys and then men open to being significantly financially and emotionally exploited by women which happens a lot in modern society. MGTOW is basically the men who've figured this out and are trying to help men.

Men like yourself are basically living a fragile illusion that could crumble at any moment. There are controls within your life that allow what you have to exist but those controls are ultimately extremely weak because of the structure of our society and can fall at any moment.

Almost all men want a family, the problem isn't men but women. Women don't want families in a manner in which is acceptable to men. This means a lot of men will never get a family because a lot of women don't offer families to men on terms that are acceptable to men.

u/RightSideFunding is correct in his responses. Women do not belong in industry or politics and women are property. Women are inferior to men. The trick of equality that modernity has played on men has dramatically impacted the well-being of our society and may very well be one of the root causes of our eventual demise.

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deleted 9 points ago +10 / -1
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MGTAU 5 points ago +5 / -0

You're falling into the same trap. Women will not do their duty. And after you've done your's, she takes half and the kids.

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TruthDefenseForce 2 points ago +3 / -1

I agree with you but many men don't understand what you just said. Why are you speaking to me like I don't? You just repeated what I said.

Small difference though. You seem to think women will ever "choose to devote yourself to the other person for the greater good". Women will never choose this because it's not in their nature. That is the mistake men make because such an act is in men's nature so men mistakenly believe women may choose to do this also but they never will. Women can emulate it due to forces of control which encourage women to do these things but they'll never come to it for the sake it it itself like a man would.

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deleted 4 points ago +4 / -0
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TruthDefenseForce 3 points ago +3 / -0

Those "forces of control" I speak of is the culture. That's why many modern western people say things like "religion is a form of control" because religion taught people good moral values and was part of the culture. As western culture breaks down into nihilism, there exists no mechanism of control to keep women in check. Men are inherently moral. Women are not.

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deleted 4 points ago +4 / -0
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TruthDefenseForce 2 points ago +2 / -0

I agree with you but as you said, women are worse. That's all I'm saying.

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MGTAU 3 points ago +3 / -0

Things have changed since our ancestors generations. And they are changing for the worse with every subsequent decade.

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deleted 3 points ago +3 / -0
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MilkPilled 1 point ago +1 / -0

You're describing the Catholic understanding of love. "Willing the good of another and sacrificing for it" it something like that

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strawman7 4 points ago +5 / -1

Could be seeing or expecting "romance" as something that happens or happens to you rather than something you create. Goes back to responsibility, chivalry, etc. on the man's part.

Obviously, feminism and media are a problem, since they are brainwashing men and women with unhealthy and degenerate beliefs.

Many women won't respect chivalry or appreciate traditional roles or a man taking a traditional romantic approach. Given the risk these days of false or misconstrued accusations, it seems best to avoid feminists.

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TruthDefenseForce 4 points ago +4 / -0

It's not a function of men act like X then women do Y in response to X. Our current society does not create an incentive structure for women to do Y so no women will act out Y no matter how X a man is. Women must be forced into being Y through the structure of the society. A man's act will never force a woman but a man's power and authority might. That is the nature of what has changed which has led to "feminists". We've taken too much power away from men and given it to women.

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drjillsusedscrunchie [S] 1 point ago +1 / -0

I actually would not have gotten thru it just fine- I get cluster headaches during times of stress, and admittedly having my wife is useful during these times. She's not my servant driving Miss Daisy, nor do I feel burdened by her. It's just the way things are. I agree about being comforting, but think a spouse should be emotionally reliable regardless. I should note that I was in a bit of a fog when I wrote this post, so it sounds more sensitive than I'd like. We are both adults who mutually support each other. Even if it's true she's inferior to me (which I don't really think, but accept for the sake of argument) I don't care because it satisfies me to care for her.

I agree romance is a silly concept. Nothing is my post is romantic, to the point I'm almost confused as to where this point came from. Everything my wife did was from a place of traditional responsibility- she didn't go out drinking, wail around doing nothing, or rack up loads of debt on credit cards- all very common things for women to do admittedly. I'm not sobbing like a faggot either, but she certainly hasn't been a burden.

I agree with your conclusion about the fragility of society, and as secure as I am in my marriage, only a fool would pretend that it couldn't all come crashing down in a moment. I openly beg for society to crash, my wife would be even more reliant on me. That being said, anytime I get in my car I could die. My dogs death that I mention in this post could not have been more unexpected. A natural disaster could come thru and take all my physical possessions. Am I to not pursue something, simply because the fear of loss is too great? Hate to say it, but divorce rape (other than the alienation of children, which is life ruining) is not the worst thing that can happen to a man. I've know guys who absolutely did not want families, but I make my arguments based on the argument at hand and logic, and not whataboutism, or anything that sounds like reverse feminism.

A side note, I usually enjoy your takes, even when I disagree, but I'm not sure about this one. Just my opinion. Moreso credit to your other content rather than derision for this comment.

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TruthDefenseForce 2 points ago +2 / -0

Thanks.

In my experience, men in relationships that are working for them often have blinders on to the actual inner-workings of their relationship. It's never until it does come crashing down that they begin to truly analyze what their relationship was like.

I see it happen all the time where the biggest MGTOW or Incel or Trad meets a woman, things are great, then they change their previous notions of women because look, this one is different. Then it crashes and they realize all their previous information was correct but they were blinded by the idea of what the woman could have been. Blinded by "love" essentially.

I've not denying your experience but I will suggest your overly rosy picture of what women could be based on your exceptional wife is clouding your judgement on how men ought to be. It's men like yourself that let feminism creep into society in the first place because "well my wife is great, maybe they are equal", etc... Women can be comforting and valuable, I agree with this but that doesn't mean because one exists all of them can be what you have. Nor does it even mean we should treat women as equal and give them equal rights and equal roles in society etc... just because 1 of them can offer you some comfort. Again, that's how we got into this mess in the first place.

Your experience isn't the norm anymore, it's the exception. Most people have to go about their life based on the averages of life not the exceptions. A lot of MGTOW men didn't start off not wanting a family. Most wanted one or even had one but lost it because of the sad realities of modernity. Then they spent their time truly understanding women through their experiences only to conclude women are a waste effort. The gain from the time/energy/pain spent trying to find a suitable wife for a family isn't worth it for most people. It's like devoting 30% of your salary and more toward buying lottery tickets trying to chase a lottery win. No one would ever consider that a good use of one's money. For most people, neither is chasing a family, though many men would want one.

I'm just going to dial back to a very noticeable trend regarding men like yourself in your situation who speak very fondly of your wife. I've talked to many men who've at some point said something like what you just said and then 5-10 years later they have nothing but negative things to say about their ex-wife. Women's nature doesn't change simply because you found one that currently works well with you in a family. A woman's nature is always the same. Your situation simply works because of the nature of your situation but your wife isn't actually any less of what average women today are. She is the same as them because she's a woman but you have a situation currently that keeps her behaving a manner that works well for you. If external pressures disrupted your situation, you will see her revert back to her nature very quickly and how what you think you have was all mostly a fragile illusion, which is the point I was trying to make earlier. Yes, if society came crumbling down, you would be better off regarding your relationship but if the current structure of what keeps your wife acting in the manner you want her to comes crumbling down, even something as simple as her becoming friends with a feminist at her new yoga studio, you could be fucked. That's the nature of women.

Understand women and suggest a social structure that works given a woman's nature. Equality isn't it. I sense much egalitarianism in your post, which is probably why I attributed it to "romance" since often the two are highly correlated.

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CuomoisaMassMurderer 7 points ago +8 / -1

Congratulations! You have a good marriage; may you have many good years :)

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ManxomeBro 6 points ago +7 / -1

I'm glad it works out for you but I guess we're different types of personality because when I'm stressed and under pressure, the last thing I want is to have anyone around me.

I've never known a woman who wasn't more of a burden than she was worth and I come to resent the disruption they bring to my life really soon.

Basically put, women consume men's time. It's just their nature to need constant attention and validation and, I guess if you're the type of guy with nothing else you'd rather be doing then it's rewarding but to me it's just a form of hell.

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MGTAU 4 points ago +6 / -2

Those women exist. The ones that actually want teamwork.

But they are few and far between (and nowadays most likely fat as hell)

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drjillsusedscrunchie [S] 2 points ago +2 / -0

I'm not sarcastic when I say I agree that you and I different. I've always liked kids, which I know is strange, and why I used the analogy in my original post. I dont know how to convey my opinion without sounding condescending, I'm just not that bothered by women, even at their weakest. I'm not asking mgtows to change, just to understand that promoting family values is a big part of this board, and just as I dont troll the mgtow board calling them faggots and asking who hurt them like a feminist npc, there's a reason we don't care if awalt.

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ManxomeBro 2 points ago +2 / -0

I'm not asking mgtows to change, just to understand that promoting family values is a big part of this board, and just as I dont troll the mgtow board calling them faggots and asking who hurt them like a feminist npc, there's a reason we don't care if awalt.

Well said. I prefer to just say I'm a bachelor, MGTOW has too much a connotation of bitterness and anger. I get along with women just fine, just can't focus when they're around too much.

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strawman7 5 points ago +6 / -1

My thoughts are as follows, and I'm not trying to be a dick or admonish you for posting details:

First off, it's a good message to MGTOW folks, in how things could be worse without a wife. Much can happen quickly, especially when facing difficult times. Having a partner can be a buffer in these times.

Take responsibility for everything that happens to you, and have at least one takeaway to grow from. Beyond that, it's best to have closure and not lament on past issues, and especially not complain or vent to a spouse in a submissive manner (this isn't directed at you, more general advice for MGTOW guys). Always maintain masculinity and composure around women.

Many things that happen can be prevented, and this is the kind of awareness and responsibility we must strive for. We can't fix everything already done, but we can learn from it and advance ourselves.

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deleted 4 points ago +6 / -2
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drjillsusedscrunchie [S] 1 point ago +1 / -0

No offense taken, on the contrary, you're right. I posted here because it makes me physically ill to talk about sad feelings with others, other than my wife. Even with her, I'd rather be called a tradcuck for posting here just to get it off my chest, than be an emotional burden. The tone of this post probably makes it seem like she's my servant while I'm wallowing away in sorrow, but thats not at all accurate- I've been giving her a lot of time to grieve, which is not a burden for me. Thankfully, cleaning is a big comfort for both of us, so we aren't just lazing about feeling sorry for ourselves.

I would only add that the dog has been the hardest thing, she was a very beautiful corgi that can't be replaced :(

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Coyot3 4 points ago +5 / -1

MGTOW is the effect of the "modern woman". Its not that men don't want families, its that they don't want to put up with the bull shit. The modern woman will send a video show "how hard it is to be a working mom", then 2 min later will interrupt me from work to ask for a glass of water (literally the same behavior the children where exhibiting that made the woman's job "so hard"). They are made to be special both in how they are raised and also the entire American society has been feminized (looking at you public schools), so they expect that special treatment from husbands even when not deserved.

A mans life should be full of hard-work and sacrifice, his wife is there to support him and provide legacy since men cannot bear children. Women can "do it all", but their lives will be miserable and the children sub-par. Families led by a matriarch will dissolve. As a society we have no method to calculate how much value there is in home making, and that is a travesty that has partially led to this quagmire. If we learn to appreciate the nurturing skills of women (as opposed to viewing them as property) it would create an enticement for them to fill that roll. So long as you think 8 hours at a day job and 3 min in the sheets is all a man is required to provide to women, the issues we face will persist until the country is gone.

Voting restrictions are more complicated than being gender based. I know some really fucking stupid men too. Homeownership, a family, good community standing. These things should all impact you ability to lobby for representation. If you are not a benefit to the American society, you opinion does not matter

A massive "tax break" for all married couples, increasing as more children created. Polygamy is generally reserved for when societies have an imbalance of the man/woman ratio, as a man with 7 wives vs 6 men with no wives is also not a great long term strategy. However, given how men in America have less than 1/2 the testosterone and sperm count as our grandfathers, maybe we have already achieved the necessary conditions for this.

I do not like the idea of government "banning" things, just as a rule of thumb. Incentives work well, and so does public pressure. If we treated women in the workplace the same way we have treated cigarette smokers since the 2000's, the issue would solve itself

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MGTAU 4 points ago +4 / -0

Cool post. I am happy you have your family and I aspire to that some day as well.

I will also not be leaving and won't censor myself cause there is a forum that's mgtow specific.

Hopefully life will treat you better my dude. And go visit your grandpa again.

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drjillsusedscrunchie [S] 2 points ago +2 / -0

I understand why you post here and not the mgtow board. I appreciate the philosophy behind mgtow, even if I disagree. I dont like women who say "every man is toxic" so I can't help but feel the same about men who are behaving in an effeminate manner. I feel the same way about them I do about lolbertarians.

Thanks man. I live 1000 miles away, but I do my best to see him as often as I can. I'll be fine, mostly in shock from the dog. :(

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MGTAU 2 points ago +2 / -0

Dogs are rough, It's always hard losing them. I've lost a couple and especially when it's sudden.

My advice is to get another. There's always another shelter dog and they can help us to get back on our feet.

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drjillsusedscrunchie [S] 2 points ago +2 / -0

Ironically, I got her and her brother as puppies two weeks after the death of my first rescue dog from old age (they're all pure corgis). I still have my buddy. He's a good boy, who killed a rabbit just now. I want to get another in the future, but I'm going to wait until after we move.

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JohnnyNubPotato 4 points ago +6 / -2

I quite literally have never had a good experience with a woman outside of my family, and this is because women that aren't related to you simply do not give a shit about you. I have met hundreds of women over my lifetime, and it has been the cause of every single problem I've ever had in my entire life. I hated my female teachers, I hated my female classmates, and I hated the girls at my church. It is to the point now where every single time I hear a woman talk I just want to beat the shit out of her. Having a wife sounds like one of the worst punishments you could ever do to any man. The best woman is worse than the worst faggot or nigger, and women in general would be completely useless to society without their capability to give birth. I'm fucking fed up with women's shit.

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TardedButNotDeparted 2 points ago +3 / -1

When I hear most women speak, I just want to stab myself in the ears. Literally one of the most annoying sounds is a woman speaking. They speak just to hear themselves and to collect attention. Mostly have nothing of value to add besides being a distraction and energy drain.

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drjillsusedscrunchie [S] 1 point ago +1 / -0

Good thing I legally forced my wife to be related to me, even changed her name. 😎

In all seriousness, before you leave a comment about divorce rape, hating something you have to see everyday, to the degree you described isn't good for you man. I understand you need to vent, and Schopenhauer is right about women, but you unironically sound like a feminist talking about men. You do you, really not asking who hurt you, but you might want to move to the woods for your own sanity.

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deleted 0 points ago +2 / -2
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50_stars_for_freedom 2 points ago +2 / -0

God bless your marriage. May it bring hope and preserve joy.

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FloorGypsy 2 points ago +3 / -1

I'm rejecting MGTOW because I want a family, and I've got too much shit to do to pointlessly bitch and groan about.

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TardedButNotDeparted 2 points ago +2 / -0

When you met your wife on the rebound, how many kids did she have from a previous relationship?

How much was she earning, how much were you earning?

Was she post-30s?

Hey, maybe you're from the pre-millenial generation, and you settled down before social media and dating apps.

Good on you.

The playing field today is different. Women have more options, and as a result, most have become entitled whores that bring nothing to the table. They're not marriage material, they're only for the streets.

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drjillsusedscrunchie [S] 1 point ago +1 / -0

I'll bite. She had no children, I'm the father of our kid. She was earning more than I was, but was laid off due to the sequester of 2013, so when I met her she was making $5k less than me. That being said, I wouldn't have met her if she hadn't been laid off, nor do I care that much about fiat currency and I don't think women should work outside the home anyway. We were both under 30, early 20s and she's younger than me. I dont like to reveal my age, but I will say that I am 100% a millennial. The playing field is not that different. Move outside the cities, and its a whole new world.

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TardedButNotDeparted 1 point ago +1 / -0

Ok, good on you. Best of luck to you all.

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deleted -1 points ago +8 / -9
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strawman7 6 points ago +7 / -1

Women should be Banned from the Workplace, and University until they are 40.

Great idea.

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Kosher_Society 3 points ago +4 / -1

Facts

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Gottmituns 1 point ago +2 / -1

I agree with you on everything but these:

Women should be classified as Property by the State. Either their Father owns them, or their Husband. If they reject their ownership, they should be outcast.

Women are "property" but legal classification is just more bureaucracy. Being married is good enough to signify ownership.

And a Man should be able to have as many Wives as He can support, up to 7.

This leaves too many men to stack up at zero. And men at zero break the system. One woman per man, and no sexual relations until marriage. This is the only sustainable way to organize a society.

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deleted 2 points ago +2 / -0
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Gottmituns -1 points ago +3 / -4

MGTOW is literally retarded. If you've only had poor experiences with women it's your fault.

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MGTAU 3 points ago +5 / -2

Adam was definitely at fault. It was all his fault Eve ate that apple!

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Gottmituns 0 points ago +2 / -2

It was. Keep your woman in line or she'll fall for some snake, story as old as time.

If you've only had poor experiences with women it's your fault

One poor experience with a woman doesn't make it your fault. We've all been there. But if every experience you've had with women was negative there's something wrong with you.

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MGTAU 2 points ago +3 / -1

Right. Except now if you try and keep your woman in line the police are going to arrest you and the state will take everything and your kids and give it to her.

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deleted -2 points ago +2 / -4
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Kosher_Society -2 points ago +4 / -6

Yeah I didn't read a word of that

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drjillsusedscrunchie [S] 3 points ago +3 / -0

You took the time to scroll all the way down, leave a comment, and didnt even call me a faggot, I'm a little disappointed