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factdigger 1 point ago +1 / -0

I recommend you consider reading this for a high level overview on the issue of "virus isolation". Part : "1: SARS-CoV2 exists"


Kaufmann and Co. have a very peculiar set of self-made criteria of when/how "isolation" should be done, to pass their criteria. However, this criteria of their own, is not the criteria of current state of the art in virology.

What I find particularly misleading and goal-post moving about Kaufman Co. is the following:

  1. They require proof. When proof is presented, they say it is "wrong kind of proof" and then proceed to handwave.

  2. They require "photographic" evidence of a virus that is BEYOND the level of ANY known optical system to actually visually image. The virus is roughly 60-120 nm in diameter. However, the optical limit of visual microscopes is at diffraction limit of c. 180 nm. Some super resolution microscopes can go just below 100nm, but even at that resolution, they can at best resolve (image) a blob, with no distinguishing features. That is. there is NO SYSTEM in the whole planet that can "photograph" SARS-CoV-2 optically as they want it to be done.

  3. There are SEM/TEM images of SARS-CoV-2. Of course, these are computer generated from the transmission spectra of the electrons, i.e. they are not "photographs". Somehow Kaufman and others think these are not good enough and they don't accept them. Plenty of science that makes working systems are based on images from SEM/TEM and nobody sees anything controversial about this and they can image details much smaller than 10nm. But Kaufman and the rest ignore this proof 100% as "not passing their personal standards". Why? They give no scientific argument about it, just hand-waving.

  4. There are FULL GENOME ,SINGLE MOLECULE, NON-PCR, NON-NAAT genomic reads of the WHOLE SARS-CoV-2 virus. Again, NOT using reverse transcriptase, not using PCR method, but by directly reading the mRNA (e.g. Oxford Nanopore, Pacific Biosystems). Again, there is plenty of real, working science and applications based on these full-genome sequencing methods, but AGAIN, Kaufman and Co start hand-waving and saying they are PCR (no they are NOT!) and that they are artificial (w0t??!) and cannot be trusted. Again, this is silly criteria. They are saying basically that the whole field of genetics is fake from the beginning to the end (and all who practice it are mororons, who haven't figured it out), it is all is fairy tales and cannot be trusted. That's a nice argument to make, but they offer no experimental, replicated and peer-reviewed published work to prove their argument. None. They just claim it and repeat the claim : "it's pcr, it's untrustworthy sequencing, blah-blah-blah."

So, this is why I have hard time believing any of these little-knowing but believe to be all-knowing themselves loudmouths have to say on this.

I don't doubt they can be well-meaning. I don't doubt that they have gotten some of the other things right, but on this isolation/sequencing issue they are more than likely seriously wrong, they can't prove their own argument and they can't falsify the proof that proves their own argument wrong. And Kaufman doesn't even understand below optical diffraction limit imaging or next-generation PCR-free sequencing. He is just clueless on those.

So with that, why should I believe ANYTHING they claim about viruses, when they can't get the basics of methods, proof and current state of the art methodologies right (they are clueless about them)?

I will not waste more of my time on their arguments on "viruses don't exist", until they actually give some tangible, replicated evidence (no, the Lanka experiments are NOT enough, they are half the equation, I follow Lanka and think he is onto something, but he hasn't yet proven his thesis!).

But boy, do Kaufman & Co end up spamming their opinions all over the blogo-/podcastsphere.

But like Harry Callahan used to say: Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one.

Links to actual studies on isolation of SARS-CoV-2 using multiple methods, some using TEM, several in BSL-3 labs:

**In Sars-CoV-2 Isolates Reported from Turkey Analysis of Nucleotide Changes at RT-PCR Primer/Probe Binding Sites **http://www.mikrobiyolbul.org/linkout.aspx?pmid=34416799

Isolating SARS-CoV-2 Strains From Countries in the Same Meridian: Genome Evolutionary Analysis https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC7837406/pdf/bioinform_v2i1e25995.pdf

Inactivation of Material from SARS-CoV-2-Infected Primary Airway Epithelial Cell Cultures https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC7839057/

Safety and immunogenicity evaluation of inactivated whole-virus-SARS-COV-2 as emerging vaccine development in Egypt https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC8287638/

Performance of the rapid high-throughput automated electrochemiluminescence immunoassay targeting total antibodies to the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein receptor binding domain in comparison to the neutralization assay https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC8035809/

Simulation of the Clinical and Pathological Manifestations of Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) in a Golden Syrian Hamster Model https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32215622/

Exploring Koch’s postulate for SARS-CoV-2-induced acute pancreatitis: is it all about the ACE? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC8344617/ As it pertains to acute pancreatic inflammation:

"However, the remaining two of Koch’s postulates, including the inoculation of samples of SARS-CoV-2 obtained from pure culture into animal or human subjects to reproduce the disease, and isolation of virus from those inoculated subjects, may not be fulfilled for ethical reasons."

Structural Mapping of Mutations in Spike, RdRp and Orf3a Genes of SARS-CoV-2 in Influenza Like Illness (ILI) Patients https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC7835825/

The genetic sequence, origin, and diagnosis of SARS-CoV-2 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC7180649/

An integrated approach to determine the abundance, mutation rate and phylogeny of the SARS-CoV-2 genome https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC7929363/

To understand how Oxford Nanopore reads DNA/mRNA WITHOUT any PCR, watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sv9fFeSd3kE

Direct RNA sequencing and early evolution of SARS-CoV-2 (this is 100% PCR free) https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.05.976167v2.full.pdf

Pervasive generation of non-canonical subgenomic RNAs by SARS-CoV-2 ((dRNAseq, PCR free again) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC7704119/

The Architecture of SARS-CoV-2 Transcriptome (again, another direct full genome, non-pcr, sequence of SARS-CoV-2 , this is getting booooring) https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867420304062

Links to actual studies showing multiple Electron Microscope images of SARS-CoV-2 at various phases of the viral replication cycle (using SEM/TEM-Cryo-EM/TM):

Correlative multi-scale cryo-imaging unveils SARS-CoV-2 assembly and egress https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC8324836/

Pulmonary Vascular Endothelialitis, Thrombosis, and Angiogenesis in Covid-19 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC7412750/

FIB-SEM as a Volume Electron Microscopy Approach to Study Cellular Architectures in SARS-CoV-2 and Other Viral Infections: A Practical Primer for a Virologist https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC8066521/

Transmission electron microscopy imaging of SARS-CoV-2 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC7224615/

SARS-CoV-2 identified by transmission electron microscopy in lymphoproliferative and ischaemic intestinal lesions of COVID-19 patients with acute abdominal pain: two case reports https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC8390036/

The Architecture of Inactivated SARS-CoV-2 with Postfusion Spikes Revealed by Cryo-EM and Cryo-ET https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC7557167/

Lower Respiratory Tract Myeloid Cells Harbor SARS-Cov-2 and Display an Inflammatory Phenotype https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC7671922/

the-new-style 1 point ago +1 / -0

thank you